Star Wars vs Star Trek – How Science Fiction Failed Us
June 18, 2010 - By Phineas Delgado
Well, friends, I apparently got some people fired up with last week’s article on Space Battles. Apparently, I broke an unwritten rule that says that you can’t pit one universe’s technology against another’s without committing the worst faux pas since Princess Leia unwittingly kissed her brother after calling her future husband a “scruffy-looking Nerf herder”. But I’ve never been one to follow the rules, really, particularly ones that no one has ever bothered to write down. So that said, it’s time we settled this age-old dispute once and for all.
OK before we continue, I wanted to explain the rules of engagement (who knew I would find a use for the Law of Armed Conflict outside the military… and yes, there is such a thing… and yes, they enforce it… back on topic now). There are a few sites that have already gone into great detail about how the Empire would trounce the Federation (and anyone else in the Trek universe), but much of it is based on scientific data and guessing. The technology in Lucas’ universe is very different than that in the Trek franchise because Lucas’ story takes place “A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away…” so he can pretty much just make things up. Star Trek takes place in the future, sure, so there are liberties, but it’s OUR future, so it had to have a foundation in real science, or it would have been unbelievable. With that in mind, I discovered something odd about the “science” of the two universes, and thusly, the arguments in favor of an Empire squash. Here’s what I discovered:
Star Wars does things on an epic scale, which alone makes it the favorite to win. But there are some major inconsistencies that mainly deal with the power of the weapons being used and the power output of the items. This is the main problem with trying to compare the two sciences. In Star Wars power output is measured in Watts, which is something we are very familiar with. A watt is a measurement of the amount of work it takes to move an object one meter in one second against a force of one Newton (sorry for the science talk, but I had to show you why some people are just too serious about this stuff). Trek measures its power output in a unit called “dynes” which makes more sense since we are talking about a propulsion system. A dyne is the measure of how much force it takes to accelerate a mass of one gram over one centimeter per second every second. Brain hurt yet?
How do watts compare to dynes? Well a single Watt would be equal to a force of 100,000 dynes over one meter ever second. Now that I’ve fried your brains a little, consider this: a single Imperial-I class Star Destroyer can produce about 7.75 x 1024 W (just for reference, a gigawatt would be 109 watts… the Flux Capacitor in Back to the Future only needed 1.21 gigawatts of power to TRAVEL THROUGH TIME… really?!… and our SUN puts out about 4 x 1026 watts of power, a mere 100 times more than the ISD… yeah… overkill, I think). Meanwhile, a standard Federation starship (in this case Voyager) can produce roughly 4,000 Teradynes, or 1010 watts, of power. Since the Star Wars ships are on the order of 10 to 20 times more massive, but produce 100 TRILLIONS TIMES more power… I think the Star Wars folks are overestimating a little bit.
Wow, for the first time since starting this article back in March, I had to stop and take a break from it. The science was starting to be too much (and if it’s too much for me, I KNOW it’s too much for you). I think I’ve discovered the fundamental flaw in any comparison of these two genre’s though (and apologies to the person who seems to have devoted many hours to the systematic tearing down of the Star Trek universe for the glory of the Galactic Empire). Star Trek is quite honestly too different from other Science Fiction universes in how it portrays Space Travel, ships, crews, and space combat in general. It has no fighters, and no large capital style ships. The best analogy I can come up with is that the Star Trek ships are more akin to submarines while other universes, including Star Wars use surface ships.
Think about it for a moment. The battles in Trek are slower, more calculated and usually involve torpedoes. The ships maneuver to try to get out of optimal firing lines. Other universes usually have large capital ships duking it out while their fighters work to get close enough to fire powerful missiles or torpedoes of their own. That’s more like how surface naval vessels fight today. Since it’s our only point of reference, that makes sense. Of course, space battles would probably be nothing like what’s presented in either universe, but it’s all we’ve been given to work with.
So what we’re left with is this: Star Wars overestimates and uses impossible physics while Star Trek just makes up units and particles, like “isotons” and “rapid nadions”. Comparing these two is like comparing Al Gore to George Bush; they’re both full of crap, but different kinds of crap. With that in mind, I present the following scenario. Please take it in with the appropriate grain of salt.
Imagine a scenario where a fleet of Imperial ships drops out of hyperspace and into our galaxy. They land on the nearest planet and claim it, subjugating the residents. Those residents happen to be Romulan. See, that’s what’s never considered. It’s always Federation vs. Empire, but that’s not how it would go down. The residents of this galaxy have shown more than once that they are willing to put petty differences aside to fight for a common goal. They did it against the Borg and again against the Dominion. Now they will do it against the Empire.
Seeing the strength of the Imperial Fleet (let’s say 30-40 ships, including a Super Star Destroyer and assorted support ships), the Romulans contact the Federation and their Klingon allies and ask for assistance against the massive ships. The Romulan fleet would be about 40 ships, with the D’deridex and Mogai classes at the front, the Klingons would commit 20-30 of their own ships, with at least 4 Negh’Var battleships, and the Federation would send a numbered fleet, which would number anywhere from 50 to 150 ships, so let’s make it an even 100 (the 12th fleet was 112 ships).
When the combined fleet warped in, they would be greeted by patrolling Tie Fighters, would be easily dispatched, but not before they communicated to the larger ships. The battle would begin the way all Imperial battles begin, with an onslaught of fighters. It would take the destruction of several smaller vessels at the hands of Ion Cannons and Proton Torpedoes to get the Trek Fleet to begin rotating shield and power frequencies, to lessen the impact of the Ion Cannons.
Eventually, the Federation flagship identifies the patterns and send orders to set phasers to wide area dispersal, which destroys the fighters in large groups, all while keeping outside the capital ships effective range. Several Stormtrooper carriers actually make it and attach to the hulls of the larger vessels, but find that the Klingons are more than a match for them in ground combat. The Romulan and Federation vessels are equipped with sensors that allow them to track the invaders, and they are easily cordoned off into cargo bays.
As the combined fleet moves to engage the Imperial Fleet, the Super Star Destroyer hits the Klingon flagship with its primary guns and destroys it in a few shots. The Trek group scatters and begins engaging the ships in groups of 4 or 5 at a time. The Imperials are scoring plenty of hits and find that the shielding of the smaller ships is no match for the power of their lasers, but also that the smaller more agile ships are more difficult to hit, even with computer guidance. The Klingons focus on the Super Star Destroyer, and two of the Battleships, badly damaged, ram into the large capital ship, disabling it. It goes badly for both sides.
In the end, I see the Empire losing 10 ships totally, with another 15 badly damaged or completely disabled with the fighters being a total loss. The Federation loses 75 ships, the Klingons all of theirs, and the Romulans managed to escape with a loss of only 15 (because gravity well generators don’t prevent warp travel, only hyperspace travel). But this is only a single battle and the Imperials are cut off from reinforcements. The Federation eventually develops technology that allows them to transport torpedoes directly to critical components if the Imperial shields are down, or beaming warp cores directly into the path of moving ships, causing massive damage.
In the end, the Imperials lose, but the Federation, Romulan and Klingon fleets are decimated and will take years to recover fully. Keep in mind the Imperials only lose because they are cut off from resupply and reinforcement. In a balanced scenario where resupply is not an issue, or in a single engagement, I have to say Empire wins every time. Size and numbers matter.
Of course, they could always just find a Doomsday machine or two…
Well, the way ~I~ did it, I put like force against like force. I didn’t add any mystical or omnipotent beings, I left “the Force” out of the equation, and I tried to compare force sizes, technology and overall power.
Now, if we put entire universe against entire universe, Trek wins because they have an omnipotent character in “Q”. Of course, getting any member of the Continuum to actually participate is another challenge entirely.
I also assumed a single massive engagement. In a long term conflict, again things would be different in a long term affair, especially if you pit universe against universe. That makes it too complicated.
So, I stand by my original assessment, which had like forces against like forces. I only grouped the Trek side together because of the much smaller population of the Trek universe by comparison.
In Starwars none of the units can even aim proply they all miss there targets while draining there ammo. In startrek they always get there target a matter how much there are of enemys.
if we are to compare universe to universe, then afte thinking about it, star trek would likely win the battle. im not including “Q” in the star trek side, as what he could do would be completely unfair. nobody is allowed to have someone with the power of god on their side. so that leaves two universes at war, based solely on their technological capabilities. that being said, star wars has many, many MANY more ships at their disposal, and these ships are generally much much larger than the star trek ships. i say generally, because there are exceptions, like borg cubes, the dyson sphere (although i have no idea of its tactical capabilities), and others i may have forgotten. speed wise, in battle the star trek ships seem to be far more maneuverable, but i think the star wars ships can definately hold their own for top speed travelling across the galaxy. the star wars ships have all the little fighters too, but have no shields to speak of, and the star trek ships could easily pick them off like flies, as their sensors and targeting systems are light years ahead. the shields for the star wars ships can be penetrated by small ships, so there little reason to believe transporters couldnt be used to attach small bombs to the outer hull of the enemy ships, and even the inner decks once the shields were compromised. thats a HUGE advantage, transporters, which could transport large groups of personnel to take the star wars ships from within, sabotage, plant more charges, or just kill everyone they come arcoss, the klingons would make great soldiers for this purpose. i think the shields of the star trek ships are vastly superior, and could absorb quite a few shots before taking damage to the ship itself, but due to the sheer number of firepower from the star wars ships, they would only delay the destruction of the star trek ships. but that delay would also buy the star trek ships time to implement their transporters, and fire back at an alarming rate themselves. the sensors of the star trek ships could provide far more detailed tactical anamysis of the enemy ships, and after taking a huge loss from their first encounters, they would quickly provide valuable info on locations of the main bridge, weapon systems, propulsion etc, and could be used to greatly increase their chances against the larger and greater number of ships. all that aside, it would be more advanced technology vs larger and more ships, and i think the technology would pull out the win, but it would be very close. with that said, i havnt even mentioned the borg, who could be sent in asa front line attack, and rip the larger ships to pieces in no time. then swarm the death stars in the same manner. they could beam 1000′s of drones aboard, adapting to everything thats thrown at them, and cripple to entire star wars fleet, and if they survived, have the romulans, klingons, and federation to deal with. not to mention that little ship from the next generation “tinman” episode, which destroyed a romulan warbird with a single pulse, or the alien probe from star trek 4, which rendered all ships near it completely powerless, or the scimitar battle ship from nemesis, imagine the damage that thing could do, with completely undetectable cloaking devices (can also fire while cloaked), an arsenal of weapons, and virtually impregnable shields. then theres the cardasians, dominion war parties, etc. also, the changelings race could infiltrate the star wars chain of command and do countless things to disrupt the heirarchy. in the end, i cant logically agree to anything but star trek coming out on top. not that it would be a slaughter by any means, but i just cant see the sheer numbers of star wars ships getting past the tactics and technology of the star trek enemies.
This article is a joke
For one thing, The Power of the Warp core is irrelevant to Phaser power. DS9, a station with no warp core and only fusion generators, has greater firepower and shielding than any Federation ship. Also we know that Photon torpedoes are stronger than phaser fire, and they are only worth 24 megatons each.
Also just because Star Wars has enormous power generation capabilities does NOT mean they are overestimations, it just means they have enormous power generation capabilities. End of story.
There ARE fighters in Star Trek, Federation Peregrines, Romulan Scorpions, and the like. They move fast enough to evade weapon locks. Also there ARE capital style ships, such as the Dominion Battleship and Romulan craft.
you massively underestimate TIE Fighters, which would be no small feat to take on, their ECM and high speed and maneuverability would make them next to impossible to hit. Meanwhile their torpedoes and missiles (Yes It’s far from unheard of for TIEs to be equipped with ordnance) would be 8x more powerful than Photon torpedoes.
Rotating frequencies would have no effect on the Ion cannons, since Imperial weapons are not phase coherent.
Wide beam phaser shots have massive weaknesses in range and rapidly dilutes the power of the shot as it’s spread over the surface area. They are useless for anything other than stun or maybe destroy a city block at best.
A handfull of Stormtroopers would decimate a Federation/Klingon/Romulan ship, they can walk through forcefields (Star Wars: complete Visual Dictionary) blow through blast doors made out of neutronium (the standard shipbuilding material in Star Wars), Their blasters would tear through the Redshirts with ease.
Klingons are a bad joke in ground combat, here’s a tip. Never bring a clumsy hunk of metal to a blaster fight. Star Wars ships are Also equipped with sensors that track intruders, as we saw in Episode III on the Invisible hand.
The Star Destroyers would have no trouble hitting the Klingon, Romulan and Federation ships, watch these battles for proof
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4fp2VJ9nqc
So much for federation targeting, speed or Klingon combat prowess.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of3CmPN781A
More misses and slow moving ships, also Federation fighters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XwQKWUkrLg
Even more misses and slow moving ships.
A single turbolaser shot carries the firepower of 8,000 photon torpedoes, it wouldn’t take a few shots to take out a Klingon, Federation or whatever ship. It would only take one to take out several. Meanwhile they would run out of torpedoes and burn out their Phasers long before the Imperial shields even startet to flinch.
3 Star Destroyers once rammed the Executor full force while coming out of hyperspace, the Executor took ZERO damage.
Gravitational distortions DO stop Warp Travel, as seen in DS9 “Once More Unto the Breach”
Also you forgot to take into consideration the fact that Hyperdrive is ludicrously fast, making Slipstream look like impulse. The Empire could easily take out all factions simultaniously in a single, sweeping attack. Sending ships and fleets to all worlds controlled by the Federation, Romulans and Klingons all at once, making their alliance moot.
Imperial ECM causes massive spacial and subspace distortions, transporters would be useless. Warp core explosions in their paths wouldn’t even phase them, their shields are more than capable of handling it.
Also how the hell is the Imperial fleet cut off from anything?
“their sensors and targeting systems are light years ahead.”
It only seems that way because Star Wars jamming is so sophisticated.
“The shields for the star wars ships can be penetrated by small ships”
uh, no, In Episode III Anakin an Obi-Wan had to take out the hangar bay shields of the Invisible hand in order to land, which was only possible because the main shields were already down before they launched.
“so there little reason to believe transporters couldnt be used to attach small bombs to the outer hull of the enemy ships,”
Again, no, the Falcon was actually outside the shields when it was attatched to the hull, much like how if you take a magnet, a sheet of thick plastic, and a metal sheet. the Magnet will stick to the plastic because the metal sheet is behind it. In this case, the Magnet is the falcon, the plastic is the shield, and the metal sheet is the hull.
“transporters, which could transpo”
I’m gonna stop you right here, Transporters A) don’t work through shields, dense materials, or interference, all of which are present on Star Destroyers and B) Transporters can only be used to beam a dozen or so people every few minutes.
C) They have to drop their OWN shields in order to even attempt this, though since Imperial weapons will vapourize their ships regardless of shields I guess there’s no point in even keeping them up.
Attempting to board a Star Destroyer takes more effort than what trek is used to in taking over an entire planet.
“The klingons would make great sold”
again, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4fp2VJ9nqc
great soldiers indeed…
“I think the shields of the star trek ships are vastly superior,”
you would be mistaken, photon torpedoes are worth 24 megatons each, and it takes 8 of them to bring down the shields of even their own flagship vessel.
Light Turbolasers are worth 200,000 megatons each, and it takes thousands of shots to bring down the shields of a vessel that’s not even designed for heavy combat.
“the sensors of the star trek ships could provide far more detailed tactical anamysis of the enemy ships,”
Not when their viewscreens are nothing but static the moment they get too close and even from far away cannot get any reading on the Imperial vessels, to the point where they can’t even tell if their shields are up or not.
“I think the technology would pull out the win”
you would be right, but the advanced tech is in the hands of the Empire, not the Federation.
“I havnt even mentioned the borg”
not really worth mentioning to be honest, they would be even less of a threat than the Federation to be perfectly honest. They’re not even as smart as the federation and they are hated by everyone in the galaxy.
“rip the larger ships to pieces in no time.”
sorry, but the Borg Cubes would be one shot killed by the turbolasers just like everyone else. incoherent energy patterns with no set frequency to adapt to, plus being 8,000x more powerful than photon torpedoes on even the Medium weapons? we’ve seen what happens when the Borg get hit with phasers they haven’t adapted to, a torpedo would blow them up.
“then swarm the death stars in the same manner.”
again, Surface turbolasers would annihilate them before they got within transporter range, and I’m not even going to bother with the transporter thing since I already pointed out how that won’t work.
“adapting to everything thats thrown at them, ”
Borg adaptation isn’t a super power, we have seen what they can or cannot adapt to, bullets, kinetic impacts, weapons who’s frequencies they haven’t matched. Blasters are in the same boat as turbolasers, each one is effectively an I-Mod.
“not to mention that little ship from the next generation “tinman” episode, which destroyed a romulan warbird with a single pulse,”
Which an Imperial Star Destroyer could do with a single Ion cannon shot, not terribly impressive and there’s no way to contact it again even if it was.
“or the alien probe from star trek 4, which rendered all ships near it completely powerless”
Again, compared to the Empire is not impressive, and again there’s no way to contact it even if it was.
“or the scimitar battle ship from nemesis, imagine the damage that thing could do, with completely undetectable cloaking devices (can also fire while cloaked), an arsenal of weapons, and virtually impregnable shields.”
GCT sensors would be able to detect it, if it has mass it can be found. The Enterprise E was able to get through it’s shields with a little help from the Valdore and that other vessel, a Star Destroyer would have zero trouble with it and it’s weapons are a non-issue.
“then theres the cardasians, dominion war parties, etc.”
All of which are too primitive and weak to be of any threat.
“also, the changelings race could infiltrate the star wars chain of command and do countless things to disrupt the heirarchy.”
except anyone force sensitive would weed them out, as well as the fact that Hyperdrive allows the Empire to set up their command and control out of range of any warp capable craft. while communicating in real time anywhere in the galaxy using Hyperwave tranceivers, which are beyond the scope of any other race in the galaxy.
“in the end, i cant logically agree to anything but star trek coming out on top.”
Now that I’ve shown you what they would actually be up against, you cannot logically continue that belief.
“i just cant see the sheer numbers of star wars ships getting past the tactics and technology of the star trek enemies.”
you don’t have to, the Star Wars ships are more advanced than you may have realized.
You are overlooking the underlying argument, which was that the technologies are completely foreign to one another. What seems like it would easily destroy a Federation ship may, in fact, have no effect at all.
That said, 24 megatons for the yield on a photon torpedo is a gross underestimation. According to the Technical Manual, photon torpedoes use a controlled explosion of matter and anti-matter (1.5kg of each). However, since those would need to be stored in a liquid or semi-solid state, they would be incredibly dense for their weight. The total yield for such an explosion COULD be astronomical, measures in GIGAtons. That’s REAL physics, too.
I think you may be confusing the fictional “isoton” for “megaton”.
As for Star Wars projectile weapons, they are apparently nuclear or thermonuclear in design, and while the EMP might have an effect on the shields, the explosions likely would not. Capital ship warheads are slow and could easily be shot down.
As for the energy weapon, I have said and will always say that SW energy outputs are ridiculous. Can you imagine the amount of shielding it would take top control the radiation from a reactor that puts out as much power as a star? Not to mention the strength of the materials that would be needed to channel that power into weapons fire? And the weapons work on entirely different concepts.
Besides, if we start adding in all the “special” powers and races, the Jedi/Sith would win.
It’s all about perception and how you stack the deck really. I can create scenarios where one side or the other would win every time, so please, try to stick with the scenario I made here.
Oh, and Klingons > Stromtroopers. Never forget, Klingons are as strong as wookies and have a society built around warfare and tactics. They also have no qualms about ramming their ships into the enemy. They have redundant organs and are highly resistant to physical damage. All stormtroopers are human, perfect or not. It would be Spartans versus Persians all over again.
I love Star Wars more than I love Star Trek. Bias declared.
The Star Wars damage outputs that Perion are quoting are bullshit. Perion is probably accurately quoting a Star Wars technical readout, but their still bullshit. Let’s put those numbers into perspective and then look at how they stack up to what we see happening on screen in the films.
A gigaton is 1000 megatons. So 200,000 megatons is 200 gigatons. This is the number quoted by Perion for the damage output of a light turbo laser.
La Garita Caldera was created by a 240 gigaton volcanic eruption, and created enough ejected material to fill lake michigan. The Chicxulub Impact, the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs, was only 50 times more powerful than that eruption.
While whatever technical manual you pulled 200,000 megatons out of is probably accurately quoted, that kind of damage output is just not supported by what we see Imperial Ships actually being capable of on screen in the films.
How long would it take an Imperial 2 Class Star Destroyer to fire 50 rounds at the surface of a planet? How long could it keep up such a bombardment? What if it had, say 999 friends? Would they be able to totally blow away a planet? I think, yes, they could. And quickly.
Why then does Han Solo say that Alderaan couldn’t have been destroyed because “it would take 1000 ships with more firepower than…?”
What they hell would the Empire need a Death Star for, if a single ship of the line could put out enough damage in SECONDS to utterly darken the sky and cause mass extinction events, to say nothing of a prolonged bombardment by multiple ships?
The simple answer is that Star Wars vessels do not actually put out as much damage as you are quoting.
Now, as to what that would mean for the larger question of who would win, I have very little opinion.
@Phineas:
“Oh, and Klingons > Stromtroopers. Never forget, Klingons are as strong as wookies and have a society built around warfare and tactics. They also have no qualms about ramming their ships into the enemy. They have redundant organs and are highly resistant to physical damage. All stormtroopers are human, perfect or not. It would be Spartans versus Persians all over again.”
What about all the Trek episodes where comparatively ill-trained humans wipe the floor with Klingons? Riker alone has come out on top of more human-klingon fistfights than you can shake a stick at, and let’s not forget at least one ep of DS9 that features the bridge crew single-handedly repulsing Klingon boarding parties armed with nothing more than the Klingons’ own melee weapons. Worf gets beaten to a pulp by every threat the Enterprise encounters. I find the evidence points to the Klingons’ reputations being almost as inflated as the power output of a Star Destroyer.
@Prytanis Thank you. You are the first person who agrees with me that the power figures given for Star Wars are unrealistic. And I appreciate that you took the time to illustrate that for us (quite frankly since I wrote this article months ago, I’ve had little time to do so myself). The major problem with Star Wars is that anyone can create anything and as long as it doesn’t completely violate the basic tenants of the canon, it will be fit into the canon. I know that a single Photon Torpedo is supposed to have a maximum yield of 64 megatons, with quantum torpedoes being at least twice that, maybe more (explosive power tends to be exponential in growth). According to many sources, a single Photon torpedo would level a large city, but they would never be able to utterly destroy a planet, unless there was something else wrong with it.
@Nerdsamwich What you see on the TV screen only accounts for a portion of what happens in the universe. Every time there has been a “future” in which the Federation was at war with the Klingons, the Federation is losing. Aside from the “Mary Sue” crew of the Enterprise (any of them) it’s clearly established that Klingons are not only more resilient than humans, but stronger, more aggressive and without fear (or so they say). Besides, Klingons aren’t always the sharpest knives in the drawer, even if they are the pointiest. They can be easily taken by surprise (as Worf frequently demonstrates). But, if Worf is laid out, generally no one else even attempts, except maybe Data, who is considerably stronger than Worf is.
Now I will admit to having out of date information. According to the original Role Playing Game, Klingons were stronger than humans and vulcans, but it seems that canon didn’t keep that idea. Vulcans have been shown, time and again, to be consistently stronger than humans AND Klingons, while Klingons are about 50% stronger on average, vulcans are at least twice as strong as that, on average.
That said, Klingons real strength lies in the fact that they are born, bred, raised and live as warriors, much like the Spartans. And I think we would all take 300 Spartans… I mean Klingons… over 10,000 Persi… I mean Stormtroopers. Let’s not forget, Stormtroopers aren’t clones anymore. They don’t have redundant organs either